American Oppos. 

"My citroen won't start" (lucasboechat) 06/12/2016 at 15:26 • Filed to: None

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Can you explain to me how someone who was in the FBI watchlist managed to have a license to carry a gun and also managed to both buy an assault rifle and hand-gun?

Your boy, BJR > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:28

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Politics.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:30

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Gun laws are shit and need to be improved. The thing is everyone just wants guns gone which they can’t because the constitution prevents that. The requirements for gun ownership needs to be much stricter.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:32

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No. No I cant.

jariten1781 > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:37

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They investigated and found no substantial evidence. People are not resticted on suspicion.

Also, he had an armed security guard class-g license which would not be affected by any gun control proposals I’ve seen. He’s one of the trained, certified folks people inherently feel safer around.

not for canada - australian in disguise > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:37

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This is gonna be great watching people defend this shit.

Steve in Manhattan > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:40

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The NRA aided and abetted by Republicans.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:41

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N.R.A.

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:42

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Anyone with enough money and determination can obtain whatever they want, despite its illegality. Anyone without enough money can obtain it through determination. It’s the same everywhere. Even in Canada, where there is pretty well no legal way for private citizens to acquire or possess fully automatic weapons, it still happens. In a country where they can be legally owned by private individuals, it becomes even easier, as they can simply be stolen.

This is not an argument for or against gun regulation, merely a statement of the fact that where things exist, they can be obtained.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:43

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Don’t know about the license part but the other bit can be explained with the word “illegally".

PS9 > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:44

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It’s dumb that something like that can happen. But there’s not too much that can be done to stop it with the current set of laws and political environment.

Cé hé sin > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:45

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Guns are part of the American way of life and the occasional killings are just a price worth paying. Yes, the pro gun lobby really does use this justification.

TooLazyToNotBurner > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:47

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The direct continuation of Americans to elect politicians that don’t actually have the interest of the voters in mind.

Nick Has an Exocet > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 06/12/2016 at 15:47

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Not everyone wants guns gone. In fact, I’m not even sure it’s over 50%. The US is a very large place. You could fit 38 UK’s in the US. Nearly 3 alone would be Texas. There are tons of legitimate reasons to own guns - including recreation and especially in the middle section of the country. If you follow the logic that there isn’t a reason to anyone to own an assault weapon therefore they should be illegal, then you must also believe that no one can use a Ferrari to it’s fullest on the street therefore those should be banned too.

What America needs to do is get a better grasp on why events like this keep happening here. If you took away the guns, it would be a bomb. Is that better? I don’t really think so. In a display of ignorance, my mother (two generations removed from immigrants) today said “this is why we need to close off the borders”.

Americans have short memories. It wasn’t long ago that it was popular past-time for southern christians to tie gay men to the back of a pickup and drag them around the town until dead. Religious hate is religious hate. It has nothing to do with immigration or guns.

TheHondaBro > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:47

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Dude was probably a really good swimmer.

My citroen won't start > Nick Has an Exocet 06/12/2016 at 15:49

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Ferrari’s are not made with the single purpose of killing in mind tho

Chasaboo > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:51

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‘Murica!

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Nick Has an Exocet 06/12/2016 at 15:52

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I was more pointing out that all the major campaigns are to ban guns, and the people fighting against that. It is a smaller group pushing for tighter restrictions.

My citroen won't start > jariten1781 06/12/2016 at 15:54

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Yes, but how is someone that unstable and in an FBI watch list even allowed to have that license?

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > jariten1781 06/12/2016 at 15:55

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Wouldn’t the latter mean he could get probably get a gun outside of the states as well?

Sam > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:57

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Because we can’t assume someone is guilty until proven innocent.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:58

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Nah, that's Mustangs.

My citroen won't start > Sam 06/12/2016 at 15:58

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I’m not saying he should be put in jail for suspicions, but his behavior should be enough cause to revoke his gun license

yamahog > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 15:59

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Because apparently the requirements for gun ownership and even CCW in Florida are basically “do you have a pulse and a small processing fee?”

Judging by my dad’s purchasing habits and brand new FL concealed permit

-_-

My citroen won't start > Steve in Manhattan 06/12/2016 at 16:00

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This is the correct answer

Sam > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:01

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Because he wanted to kill people? Laws do jack-shit in this regard. I could literally go to a darknet website and buy a fully automatic M240B machine gun and enough C4 to level a skyscraper.

He was not on any FBI ‘list’. He was investigated and the evidence pointed to him being a normal guy with no definable connections. He was also a security guard with a Class-G licence, similar to the clearance a European armed police officer has.

jariten1781 > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:02

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They investigated, did site reviews, interviewed witnesses, and interviewed him as well. On both occasions the FBI found no substantial evidence.

It’s a tight line to walk. He’s a security guard and you don’t want to take away his livelihood just because someone is afraid of a brown Muslim with a gun and reports that to the FBI. It’d be chilling if solely an accusation could ruin lives. I’m sure we’ll see if they dropped the ball during the investigatory phase relatively shortly, but right now the FBI has said nothing was found at the first look, and nothing substantial at the second.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:04

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It’s an odd situation. If you had a country with laws where nobody could get a gun, you could just become even more strict about it. We’ve got so many guns here that it’s impossible at this point to put the genie back in the bottle, so to speak.

The handgun was legally purchased, I haven’t heard about the rifle, but I’ll be interested to see if it’s a full automatic or a regular old semi auto. ‘Assault rifle’ in the US doesn’t necessarily mean full automatic, just that it has a pistol grip and some stuff even though its functionally identical to a hunting rifle.

To answer your question about the watch list, I guess because nothing has been proved? I suppose you have to be guilty of an actual crime before they say you can’t (legally) buy a gun.

jariten1781 > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 06/12/2016 at 16:04

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Yes, almost all countries allow bodyguards, security guards, private detectives, etc. to have arms to various degrees.

Sam > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:05

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Why? His behavior was found to not be substantially suspicious, by people who’s job is to determine whether someone is substantially suspicious.

Xyl0c41n3 > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 06/12/2016 at 16:05

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Except he obtained his guns legally.

As has every American mass shooter in recent history.

This isn’t an issue of “criminals are going to get guns no matter what.”

My citroen won't start > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 06/12/2016 at 16:05

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I imagine full auto because 50 people were killed, but I could be wrong

My citroen won't start > Sam 06/12/2016 at 16:06

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Someone offended by two men kissing should not even be allowed near a slingshot.

Sam > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:08

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Thought police. You are endorsing thought police. I’m a proponent of gay marriage (why the hell should I give a shit if two men or women love each other), but we can’t take someone’s rights away if they disagree. Then we are no better than Nazis or Soviets.

Xyl0c41n3 > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 06/12/2016 at 16:09

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Except he purchased his guns legally.

As has every American mass shooter in recent memory.

The “criminals are going to get guns no matter what kinds of laws are in place” argument doesn't ever hold water in mass shooter situations because, again, the guns (so far) have all been obtained legally.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:09

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That's my thought as well, just because of logistics. Full auto is tougher to acquire, rifles are actually even easier to buy where I live than a handgun. You can buy a rifle at Walmart.

My citroen won't start > Sam 06/12/2016 at 16:10

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But that is what background checks should do, if you demonstrate an unstable and or dangerous psyche you should not be allowed near a gun.

El Rivinado > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:10

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Because a watchlist means crap. In the U.S, you need to actually commit a crime in order to have your rights taken away, including the right to the second amendment. Just because he was on an FBI watchlist doesn't mean anything, unless he got arrested for a felony prior to what he was doing, he was clear to go. The only way you could've stopped him was if you arrested him for a crime you think he would've committed (which opens up a lot of unconstitutional can of worms that you don't want to get into) That's the thing, nobody is a criminal, until they actually commit a crime.

My citroen won't start > El Rivinado 06/12/2016 at 16:12

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That’s the problem with the US, owning a gun is a right, not a privilege, which is fucked up.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Nick Has an Exocet 06/12/2016 at 16:13

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There are lots of arguments to be made for all sorts of gun ownership. But this:

If you follow the logic that there isn’t a reason to anyone to own an assault weapon therefore they should be illegal, then you must also believe that no one can use a Ferrari to it’s fullest on the street therefore those should be banned too.

is one of the worst ones.

Sam > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:13

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He made 2 comments in 29 years that made him seem like he may or may not be unstable. I’m also a proponent of mental health checks for gun owners (I can understand the opposition, since a lot of the hardcore 2nd amendmenters are probably crazy), but we can’t take one thing a person says as a guarantee that they aren’t stable.

A Class-G permit requires extensive background checks, which he had to pass in order to get the firearms he used in the shooting.

Under_Score > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:14

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Honestly, we just need to DESTROY radical Islamic terrorism.

My citroen won't start > Under_Score 06/12/2016 at 16:15

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Yes, by not allowing them to buy guns that easily in the first place.

My citroen won't start > Sam 06/12/2016 at 16:17

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I doubt he made these 2 statements in 29 years, as if someday in Tacobell he screamed at the top of his lungs “Alah darnit those damn gays are kissing again” and everyone around him went “Jesus, what happened to Greg today? He never hated gays before"

El Rivinado > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:17

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How is that fucked up?

Sam > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:19

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There are a fair amount of people that dislike homosexuals. It would be ridiculous to assume that every one of them wants to go on a murderous rampage.

My citroen won't start > El Rivinado 06/12/2016 at 16:19

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In the same way Healthcare being a privilege and not a right in the US is fucked up.

My citroen won't start > Sam 06/12/2016 at 16:20

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But it is weird to assume that those that want to go on a murderous rampage did not show any previous signs.

El Rivinado > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:21

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Can you explain any further?

Under_Score > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:23

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The guns aren’t the issue. Think about all of the people that have purchased guns legally that haven’t done anything at all. A town near me requires that each household has a gun, and that place isn’t a crime-ridden slum. The issues with these people need to be seen; monitor suspicious online activities, behaviors, etc. Elliot Rodger, for instance, made these really creepy videos talking about how he wanted to kill people and how he hated society. If his parents saw what was going on, they could’ve gotten him help.

My citroen won't start > El Rivinado 06/12/2016 at 16:27

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It’s the innate liberalism (not the in the republican/liberal sense of the word) that America always had. The “free-market” bullshit, every man for himself doing whatever the fuck he wants. Guns, as dangerous as they are, should not be guaranteed as a right, they don’t serve for the greater good and betterment of society.

El Rivinado > Under_Score 06/12/2016 at 16:27

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Except that before he committed the crime, his parent’s contacted the police and not only did they not find anything, he was able to convince them that it was all a misunderstanding between him and his parents. Also the officers didn't search his bedroom were he was keeping his guns.

Xyl0c41n3 > Under_Score 06/12/2016 at 16:33

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Correction: Elliott Rodger made videos about wanting to kill women, specifically.

And this current shooter made comments specifically about the gay community. His choice of target wasn’t an accident. Nor was Rodgers’.

Let’s not obfuscate the real issue here: that those two murderers in particular very purposefully chose to target marginalized groups of people.

duurtlang > jariten1781 06/12/2016 at 16:33

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They do? The only people in my country that I’m aware off that have firearms in their home are police officers (their service arm) and hunters (hunting rifles). If you’re part of a shooting club and you jump through some very stringent hoops you might be able to have a license as well, with arm and ammo locked up at separate safes and you’d only be allowed to transport said firearm on the shortest route to the shooting range you’re a member off. Oh, and before you get a license with a validity for 1 year and for 1 firearm you’ve been a member of this shooting club for at least a year.

But security guards/bodyguards/private detectives with firearms? Not really. What’s the point, they’re private citizens who are not allowed to use more force than any other citizen.

Xyl0c41n3 > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:36

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A semi-automatic AR-15 has two shooting modes: single shot and three-shot burst. Even if he didn’t have the extended round magazine, it would be QUITE easy for a psychopath to systematically kill 50 people with “just” a semi-automatic AR-15.

El Rivinado > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:37

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So, let’s see if I understand this correctly. You think, that because our Government is not involved in the second amendment, that because our government is not involved with every aspect of our lives, that the Second Amendment, a constitutional guarantee, is not infringed upon by “safety” measures from the Government. That the right to own arms shouldn’t even be a right.

If I get this wrong, please feel free to explain to me any further. But, as a gun owner, I get the feeling that your generalizing everyone who supports the second amendment as a potential nut just waiting to shoot everyone in sight if they get the chance, and that only with the overreach of the federal government, can these maniacs be stopped. Which is so far from true that I almost find it offensive in and of itself.

My citroen won't start > Xyl0c41n3 06/12/2016 at 16:38

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My technical gun knowledge is close to 0, but to kill 50 people I imagined you would need some fire-power. I’m not in any way trying to say just full-autos are dangerous, I’m against every single type of gun ownership that isn’t 100% justified (hunters, some police, etc)

My citroen won't start > El Rivinado 06/12/2016 at 16:42

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I’m trying to say that gun ownership should be tightly controlled and has no right (haha) to be a right in the constitution. If you want a gun, fine, but why do you want it? Should you really have a gun?

The monopoly of force should only belong to the state in a controlled manner (just like in every civilized country, where even some police officer don’t have guns), a personal monopoly of this force is a mistake, in my mind.

My citroen won't start > duurtlang 06/12/2016 at 16:45

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Please get them to understand that duurtlang, please.

Xyl0c41n3 > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:47

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You can kill someone with a .22 aimed at just the right spot. (Those bullets are tiny little things).

You don’t need a lot of firepower to kill a bunch of people trapped in a confined space. You don’t even need good aim. Nor do you need a firearm that will continue shooting for you as long as you hold down the trigger. Nor do you need to fire a shot that is (usually) instantly fatal (such as to the head or heart).

A shot to the lungs can cause death from the collapse of those lungs inside an hour. A shot to the stomach and/or intestines can cause death from sepsis (without antibiotics and tissue repair) or just simple blood loss. A shot to any sizable blood vessel can cause death anywhere from a few minutes (especially if it’s an artery), to a couple of hours.

When people are scared and a madman is determined enough, it takes surprisingly little effort to take advantage of that panic and kill so many people.

El Rivinado > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 16:52

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I want a gun, because I like to shoot for fun. I want a gun, because it’s a hobby of mind that I have a lot of knowledge in. I want a gun, in the rare cases where I have to defend myself in my home or my friends, I can do so without being disadvantaged. That’s why I want a gun.

Now, let me ask you a question. If you believe that the state should only have a monopoly of force, what will happen if the state becomes corrupt? What if the state abuses it’s power? What if the state is free to commit horrible acts for whatever reason? Now, I’m not trying to be a person who’s convinced that all governments will eventually become corrupt and abusive (I’m distrusting of the state, not paranoid of it). But, if the state has that monopoly of force, what is to prevent the state from abusing. Also, let me ask you this question, if the state should determine who gets a gun and who doesn’t, what arbitrary limits are there? Should people be denied this because of arbitrary limits? Should the state have that power of who is deemed worthy and who isn’t? And, if the state does have these limits in place, how far are they going to push them and will they push them too far in the name of keeping everyone “safe?”

The fact that you haven’t automatically responded to me in condescension or dismissal means I’m willing to debate you further. I just have so many questions that, as a small government minded individual, I can't help but ask.

jariten1781 > duurtlang 06/12/2016 at 16:53

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Every country I’ve been to had private security firms with armed personnel. They’re not always allowed to take them home (depends on location). Most resrictive was Hong Kong which only allowed them to be armed during transport of jewely/precious metals/bank notes.

whoarder is tellurium > Xyl0c41n3 06/12/2016 at 17:05

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A semi-automatic AR-15 does not have 3 shot burst.

It is a single shot per trigger pull or safe. That is it.

There are other (M4/M16) variants that are fully automatic but have combinations of safe, semi, burst and full. (sometimes all 4)

My citroen won't start > El Rivinado 06/12/2016 at 17:05

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I think this is where we will have our difference, I’m a big defender of the Scandinavian model and have voted for the Socialist party all my life. I think it is also fair to say that will not think any less of anyone who has a different ideology, we are all friends here, so I would never be dismissive and condescending.

With that out of the way, I’m going to use Duurtlang’s response as an example:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

That state has the monopoly of force because it is there to guarantee everyone can live in peace, no citizen should have a personal monopoly of this power that they can use on another citizen.

See Japan and Australia and even most of Europe, there is little mass-shootings that are not perpetrated by organized terrorists, homicide numbers are getting lower and lower.

I’m not saying that just because you have a gun, you are 100% going to kill someone, but the human species is unpredictable, it is that easy to just drunkenly kill your neighbor over some heated dispute, but ease of access to a gun just makes it 1000% easier.

Manny05x > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 17:09

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Umm he was American.

Sam > duurtlang 06/12/2016 at 17:16

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Just a small bit of extra info - he was a security officer at a federal building. The people he was protecting are of the class that they would likely be the target of armed attack. I’m fairly certain that even European security guards at government buildings are typically armed.

El Rivinado > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 17:29

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Okay, I see your point. Now, I believe that people can live with guns in their homes and people can be polite and even live in peace, even with a tool designed for killing. That’s just me though, despite what may seem like a cynical or realistic outlook, I try to be as optimistic as possible.

With that said, the examples you provide are low in homicide numbers, but that’s because they’ve all but banned firearms from their states, and the few that are in are heavily restricted. That kind of model can’t work for America for two reasons.

1: Guns have been a very big part of this country, ever since it’s inception. It’s been ingrained in us culturally for so long, it’s not easy to get rid of.

2: America is a melting pot, for better or for worse, that is what makes us who we are. But, the downside of a melting pot, is that issues are not easier to resolve. We are a culturally, ethnically, and politically diverse society. To compare other nations to us, is to compare apples to oranges, what works with one nation, won’t necessarily work with us and vice versa.

So, to understand the problems with gun violence in our country, is more than just the access to arms. Believe it or not, contrary to what the media likes to show, mass shootings make up very little in the total deaths by firearms in our country, two thirds of the deaths by firearms are suicides. To try and solve these issues and only focus on the guns is, what I feel, to be a misunderstanding. It’s not a gun problem, or if there is, it’s very little. It’s a sociological problem, it’s an economic problem, it’s a cultural problem, it’s a problem that requires more debate, more understanding, that’ll take longer to solve, and that’ll take money to solve. But, the problems we should be looking at, are too complex to solve, and in the age of the ever present echo chamber and the self-gratification complex, they’re too complex to solve effectively. It’s the kind of stuff that requires reasoned debate, bringing up points or opinions that might be considered controversial, and trying to meet each other halfway. Unfortunately, America has kind of lost that in the internet age, as a result, we go look at Band-Aid solutions or boogeymen to distract ourselves from the real issues that might be pertained to.

So, how do we deal with these problems when they arise? That’s an answer that I wish I could say that I had, but I don’t. My way of solving it is simply to look at these tragedies on a case by case basis, and figure out ways to prevent it from happening again that don’t involve limiting the second amendment with overemotional feel good solutions, and also not to give the worthless motherfuckers who committed these crimes any attention, to deny them of their 15 minutes of fame, to deny them of the infamy that they caused, or in some cases, thrive off of. But, that’s just my solution, and even then, I understand if that’s not the right way to go about it.

It’s something that takes a lot more than easy soundbites and convenient talking points. I just get sick when this stuff comes on, as it makes me feel lesser of a lot of people who revel in spewing ignorance and false claims that I know are not true. I hope that we analyze the real issues that plague what causes evil people to do evil things and how we can stop it, but right now, it’s just not something we as a country (This if for both sides of the political spectrum by the way), have the emotional maturity and reason to solve.

Frenchlicker > Xyl0c41n3 06/12/2016 at 18:05

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No, no it does not. Semi auto AR’s are exactly that, semi auto. One trigger pull= one round. However equipped properly a semi auto AR can be fired nearly as fast as an automatic.

Hank Scorpio > My citroen won't start 06/12/2016 at 23:04

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There is no licensing in many places. I was at a gun show yesterday, looking for a shotgun for sporting clay use. I had to explain to the friend I was with that the only thing he’d need to show a vendor before buying one was a valid government ID showing he was over 18. It’s 21 for handguns, but otherwise no harder. If we had the cash, we could’ve bought all the same stuff both the Orlando and LA guys were carrying in about an hour at that show, and shows like that happen every week around here.

Mercedes Streeter > Sam 06/13/2016 at 01:10

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But the problem is that in the USA, we do jack shit to even try to stop these people. It is the “well they’ll get their guns no matter what laws are in place” logic that leads to our current policies.

You DONT need to go black market for a gun in the US..it’s hilariously easy to obtain almost any gun (and even an armoured vehicle) legally in this country.

Fact: The vast majority of shootings last year involved people who legally got their guns..people who didn’t need a black market because we don’t even do a bare minimum to make sure guns don’t get into the wrong hands.

I’m not saying we should ban guns (I don’t believe we should), but goddamn we should be trying better to keep them out of the hands of people like this. Hell, I had to wait almost three months and undergo a psychological evaluation to get harmless hormones, yet I can get me a gun in a few days with much fewer questions asked. How is that at all fair?

Sam > Mercedes Streeter 06/13/2016 at 01:24

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But this guy already went through even more checks than an average gun owner with the license he carried. So while background checks and other forms of gun management are very good for keeping guns from known crazies, it’s very difficult to know if someone will randomly do off the handle and murder people. That’s an unfortunate side effect of ‘innocent until proven guilty’. You can’t consider someone to be a crazy until they show that they are truly crazy.

That’s the worst part of fighting a group like the Islamic State and domestic terrorism. In traditional war, you know who the enemy is by where they are from or the flag they are flying. But with this form of warfare, they aren't easily identified until they actually do damage.

Mercedes Streeter > Sam 06/13/2016 at 01:48

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Oh I agree. Unfortunately I think it’s time we treat gun buyers how many states absolutely adore to treat women!

Obviously as we’ve seen with Dylann Roof, the Planned Parenthood shooter, and this guy, clearly a background check isn’t nearly good enough.

Most people like me have to be “proven” to be responsible enough just to take some magic happiness pills (HRT). Many women are forced to go through a waiting period then drive across an entire state before they could get an abortion... Yet in most places, buying a gun is less harmful than a day at the DMV.

Maybe, maybe we should start having prospective gun buyers pass a psychological evaluation too? Maybe that would also help weed out the unhinged? Idk, but clearly what we’re doing now is not enough. :(

The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) > My citroen won't start 06/13/2016 at 14:47

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Ferraris are specifically designed to drive extremely fast. Sometimes that’s done on the street (dumb), sometimes that’s done on the racetrack (smart).

Guns are design to launch a projectile extremely fast. Sometimes that’s used to kill (for self defense and hunting, which is good, or for ill intent, which is obviously bad), sometimes it’s to put holes in paper.

The gun and the Ferrari are both machines that work in a particular way. Misuse of either can be fatal. If you think guns are inherently dangerous and should be banned, go ahead and state it, but don’t delude yourself by saying that the gun only exists to kill innocents.